[fodDB 2011] Discussion

Ok guys, here is the right place to put your comments, suggestions or criticism.

First of all, a link to a very first version of the database (and only the dbs, without graphic stuff and stages, just to get a quick view of what is in):

fodDB 2011 Database v0.1

Please make backups of your previous DBs and DON'T (!!) use this one to play - this is just meant for giving a hint on what is done up to now!


EDIT: uploaded a package including all used stages (so one can browse through the races without crashes when clicking on them): CM_Stages

Haven't had a look on the DB yet, so these comments are only on the team and race lists.

First of all, where did you get all the PCM06 jerseys? More than half the teams already have the correct jersey according to the list.
Not that it's not great, I'm just wondering.

I'll be able to build some easier stages, e.g. the World Championships courses, or the Canadian WT races. And when I have the time I'll also make the Tour of South Africa.
But fancy stages, like big mountain stages, are too complicated for me.

Also, I've made (and will continue to do so) a few classification files for races (with correct sprint & mountain points, prize money etc.).

I've noticed a couple of mistakes (Genesys is from Australia, not New Zealand; the Singapore Criterium takes place in Indonesia etc.), but I'll make a list of those later.
But if possible, you should move the late-October races so that none of them extend into November, and all stage races end on 29/10 (some riders change teams on 30/10 already, and that could potentially mess these races up).

What's the deal with some of the race dates? For instance, at the Tour of South Africa, it says "should end on 26/2". And why is Gent-Wevelgem moved to 28/3?
Also, I see that you have merged several one-day races (Challenge Illes Balears, the Moroccan Challenges). I'd prefer if these were separate races.

What about the riders' stats? Are they based on the PPDB matrix or not?

And last, but not least: Is the DB "normal", so you start a career how you're supposed to do, or is it based on a savegame like the PPDB Giant 2007?

Fus87 wrote:

First of all, where did you get all the PCM06 jerseys? More than half the teams already have the correct jersey according to the list.
Not that it's not great, I'm just wondering.

Got them from various forums (Cyanide, PCM-Benelux, PCM-Portugal,...). So the problem will be to contact all the creators (as I originally didn't plan to release this DB, I don't remember exactly where I got which jersey from) and ask for allowance to use their work in this package.

Fus87 wrote:

I'll be able to build some easier stages, e.g. the World Championships courses, or the Canadian WT races. And when I have the time I'll also make the Tour of South Africa.
But fancy stages, like big mountain stages, are too complicated for me.

That'd be a nice start. Hope we'll get someone in here with the time/ability to create some more stages.

Fus87 wrote:

Also, I've made (and will continue to do so) a few classification files for races (with correct sprint & mountain points, prize money etc.).

Nice too

Fus87 wrote:

I've noticed a couple of mistakes (Genesys is from Australia, not New Zealand; the Singapore Criterium takes place in Indonesia etc.), but I'll make a list of those later.
But if possible, you should move the late-October races so that none of them extend into November, and all stage races end on 29/10 (some riders change teams on 30/10 already, and that could potentially mess these races up).

Ok, think I mixed things up on Genesys and the OCBC Criterium. But no worry, going to correct this.
On the November-thingie: Already moved all races so they don't touch November anymore, will move them even further to hit your suggestion with 29/10. Thanks for that!

Fus87 wrote:

What's the deal with some of the race dates? For instance, at the Tour of South Africa, it says "should end on 26/2". And why is Gent-Wevelgem moved to 28/3? Also, I see that you have merged several one-day races (Challenge Illes Balears, the Moroccan Challenges). I'd prefer if these were separate races.

The number of stages for some races is not yet correct as for 2011 and so they don't fit in the original dates yet. That is to be corrected within the next few days. And for those merged series-races my intention was to have teams sending the same riders to those races as irl. If there are 4 seperate one-day-races on the Balears in February maybe some teams may send totally different riders what is not really realistic.

Fus87 wrote:

What about the riders' stats? Are they based on the PPDB matrix or not?

Well, I've got no clue of the PPDB matrix at all The stats are for now mixed stats from various DBs (Giant 10, Giant 07) corrected based on real results and mostly on CQ-rankings. But there is for sure plenty of work to do.

Fus87 wrote:

And last, but not least: Is the DB "normal", so you start a career how you're supposed to do, or is it based on a savegame like the PPDB Giant 2007?

I'd really love to create a "normal" DB, so no savegame-editing is necessary to start a new career. For that we should limit the number of teams, races and riders in the DB. Think 150 teams and 500 races is a good number to start from.

crxfod wrote:

Fus87 wrote:

What's the deal with some of the race dates? For instance, at the Tour of South Africa, it says "should end on 26/2". And why is Gent-Wevelgem moved to 28/3? Also, I see that you have merged several one-day races (Challenge Illes Balears, the Moroccan Challenges). I'd prefer if these were separate races.

The number of stages for some races is not yet correct as for 2011 and so they don't fit in the original dates yet. That is to be corrected within the next few days. And for those merged series-races my intention was to have teams sending the same riders to those races as irl. If there are 4 seperate one-day-races on the Balears in February maybe some teams may send totally different riders what is not really realistic.

I see that the different line-ups could be unrealistic.
But for a small team, a series of one-day races are way more valuable (in terms of points) than a stage race: Winning a 2.2 stage race with three stages (like the Moroccan Challenges) gives 40 points (plus some extra from the stages). Winning a 1.2 race gives 40 points too! This is somewhat stupid, but it's not our problem to solve.
So, if you place 3rd, 5th and 1st in the three stages of a Moroccan Challenge and win the GC (as a stage race), you get 50 points.
If they were one-day races, the rider would get 66 points for the exact same results.
Also, in the Mallorcan series, it IS possible to field different line-ups each day, and many teams do so, racing their sprinters on the flat stages and their allrounders on the hillier ones.

About including national teams: Maybe the problem with e.g. Morocco signing 3 Spaniards and a Frenchman after 1 year can be solved.
For each team, it is possible to assign a "nationalism" value somewhere in the files. If this is set to the highest value, the team should only sign riders of the same nationality. That would of course need some testing.
Another solution could be to adjust the riders' salaries, the budget and the sponsor's expectations so that there will simply be no room for new signings: If the team has a 1 million budget, the sponsor's expectations (the BSCI value or something like that) are so high that the budget will only grow if they practically win every race they participate in, and they have no money left after riders' salaries and travel expenses, the AI shouldn't attempt to sign any new riders. This would also need testing.
Of course the current riders will have to get long-term contracts (at least 4 years) so that they stay at their national team.

As you see, I'm really adamant about having Morocco in.

Fus87 wrote:

So, if you place 3rd, 5th and 1st in the three stages of a Moroccan Challenge and win the GC (as a stage race), you get 50 points.
If they were one-day races, the rider would get 66 points for the exact same results.
Also, in the Mallorcan series, it IS possible to field different line-ups each day, and many teams do so, racing their sprinters on the flat stages and their allrounders on the hillier ones.

Ok, looks like we should really split those races then.

Fus87 wrote:

About including national teams: Maybe the problem with e.g. Morocco signing 3 Spaniards and a Frenchman after 1 year can be solved.
For each team, it is possible to assign a "nationalism" value somewhere in the files. If this is set to the highest value, the team should only sign riders of the same nationality. That would of course need some testing.

Seems that I can still learn from you when it comes to db-making Will give it a try later today. Gonna put up a test database with just a small amount of races in it so I can simulate whole years within little time and see how teams behave on signings for 2012 and further.

Fus87 wrote:

Another solution could be to adjust the riders' salaries, the budget and the sponsor's expectations so that there will simply be no room for new signings: If the team has a 1 million budget, the sponsor's expectations (the BSCI value or something like that) are so high that the budget will only grow if they practically win every race they participate in, and they have no money left after riders' salaries and travel expenses, the AI shouldn't attempt to sign any new riders. This would also need testing.

Interesting idea too, but I would really prefer the above .

Fus87 wrote:

Of course the current riders will have to get long-term contracts (at least 4 years) so that they stay at their national team.

As you see, I'm really adamant about having Morocco in.

I see Well if we can achieve the goal of no unrealistic behaviour then it'd be ok for me.

After merging some stages from the Giant 08 Unlmtd I updated the calender-topic. Races from 1/1 to 30/6 now have the year of their profiles listed. July to October to be done within the next few days.

Also did some research on staff. There are now 1700+ entries in this table (hope to have eliminated all of these random guys).

Calender topic updated again, profile years of all races listed. Also updated the number of stages for some races and re-moved G-W to 27/3.

Not to be a pain in the ***, but how many stages does the Tour of South Africa have now?
Because although the race was over 8 days, it had only 7 stages.
The 3rd day was a "rest day" to accommodate the transfer from Johannesburg to Port Elizabeth...

Fus87 wrote:

Not to be a pain in the ***, but how many stages does the Tour of South Africa have now?
Because although the race was over 8 days, it had only 7 stages.
The 3rd day was a "rest day" to accommodate the transfer from Johannesburg to Port Elizabeth...

Still has 7 stages as it's ought to be. Simply included the rest-day now.

Btw: I won't be online the next few days (not before Sunday) so don't expect me answering questions or giving updates till then.

All's well then.

When I have put the fodDB 2011 Database v0.1 files in the Database folder and then try to start PCM the game crashes.
When i replace the Local with another file (I used the Giant 2007 Local) the game opens, but of course I have several issues: The country flags are replaced by cyclist photos, and some race categories have wrong names (Denmark instead of NE etc.). Although it is of course possible to look at the DB regardless, it is a bit annoying.

Anybody else having the problem with the crash when starting PCM with the fodDB Local?

Fus87 wrote:

When I have put the fodDB 2011 Database v0.1 files in the Database folder and then try to start PCM the game crashes.
When i replace the Local with another file (I used the Giant 2007 Local) the game opens, but of course I have several issues: The country flags are replaced by cyclist photos, and some race categories have wrong names (Denmark instead of NE etc.). Although it is of course possible to look at the DB regardless, it is a bit annoying.

Anybody else having the problem with the crash when starting PCM with the fodDB Local?

Don't know what's the problem, but here is an updated test-version: fodDB v0.2

Hope this will help you get rid of the crashes.

Btw: If anyone has an idea on how to set up a good matrix based on real world results, I'll be glad to see it For now I check results for all riders I edit and compare them to others already in the DB. Makes some hard work on adding new riders.

Currently I work on adding more scoutable riders. Everyone agrees that their skill average should be limited to the range 58-67 with just big talents as Salvatore Puccio at 67?

crxfod wrote:

Don't know what's the problem, but here is an updated test-version: fodDB v0.2

Hope this will help you get rid of the crashes.

Sadly no. PCM hangs up when starting with the Local.cdb in the Database folder.
I suppose it works on your PC?

crxfod wrote:

Btw: If anyone has an idea on how to set up a good matrix based on real world results, I'll be glad to see it For now I check results for all riders I edit and compare them to others already in the DB. Makes some hard work on adding new riders.

Have you had a look on pimmen's PPDB Rankings?
They're behind the PPDB matrix, and thus generally awesome. I don't know the exact facts, but they're good for looking at how the top and sub-top riders should be ranked.

crxfod wrote:

Currently I work on adding more scoutable riders. Everyone agrees that their skill average should be limited to the range 58-67 with just big talents as Salvatore Puccio at 67?

I agree that the average for those should be limited. Especially if you're making use of the experience levels (which I can see you do).
And 67 is as good a limit as any.

I just had an idea regarding the crashing Local.cdb.

There are some tables that are not included in the Local.cdb and thus shouldn't be imported into it. The converters will give you an error when you try it, but I think it could still be done with the PCM Kicker.

This could be the problem that leads to the crash?
Maybe you could "build" a new Local.cdb with only the tables that should be in it.

Of course I don't know exactly which tables are in the Local.cdb and which aren't.
The STA_TGA (for the graphics files) and the STA_localized_string (for several names and lines; this could also include the STA_licenced_string though) are certainly in, the same goes for the STA_race and STA_stage.
Apart from that, I don't know.

Fus87 wrote:

I just had an idea regarding the crashing Local.cdb.

There are some tables that are not included in the Local.cdb and thus shouldn't be imported into it. The converters will give you an error when you try it, but I think it could still be done with the PCM Kicker.

This could be the problem that leads to the crash?
Maybe you could "build" a new Local.cdb with only the tables that should be in it.

Of course I don't know exactly which tables are in the Local.cdb and which aren't.
The STA_TGA (for the graphics files) and the STA_localized_string (for several names and lines; this could also include the STA_licenced_string though) are certainly in, the same goes for the STA_race and STA_stage.
Apart from that, I don't know.

Sorry man, didn't alter the number of tables in Local.cdb. Same as in original one, just updated the values within the tables. I really don't know what goes wrong here. Hopefully someone else could give a hint.

Is there anyone out there who gave this raw version a try and didn't get the crash?

Strange.
Must be Cya-logic, I guess.

Fus87 wrote:

Strange.
Must be Cya-logic, I guess.

Just some thoughts:

Maybe you're missing some background graphics. Did you alter or rename any of those? (Maybe by installing another db-package.)

Which language do you use? What's about graphic settings?

Is the log-File telling anything?

The background graphics could be it. I have the background from the PPDB Giant 2007 which is different from the standard background (as far as I know, I never played the game with another DB than the Giant - not even the standard DB).

Language is English, graphics setting is 1024x768 (32 bit).
The 3D stage settings shouldn't have any influence on the crash when starting, but anyway:
Shaders: Off
Animation details: 2
Rider details: 2
Forest details: 3
Display spectators: 3
One texture per rider: on
Display towns: on
Force graphic options: on

EDIT: And I sent you the log file. I have no idea what it says in there, but maybe you can find something if necessary.

The problem leading to the crash was found: You have to delete the content of the CustomTour folder (inside the folder CM_stages), then it will start.

Added new teams today: ASC Dukla Praha and Sigma Sports - Specialized. Currently working on the African Continental Cycling Center team, but who should be added to this team? Different line-ups for it can be found:

Official website
Cyclingfever
Cyclingteams blog

I'd personally prefer the last one, just to have riders like Teklehaimanot, Berhane and Minougou at the team. But maybe it's not really up-to-date. Opinions?

It depends on whether Eritrea (and Morocco) will be in as a national team or not. If they're in, the riders from these countries should of course be at their respective national teams.

As you can see on the official website, most riders only come to the Center for training camps, some of them in the start of last year. I also think that the team shouldn't have too many riders. 36 (like in the Cyclingteams blog) is too much - they're only going to race in Africa (and maybe participate in some U23 races, if these will be in the DB) after all.

Only the following actually started in a UCI race (Tour of Rwanda, Tropicale or Tour of South Africa) for the team:
Dan Craven (as a "guest rider"; he's of course at Rapha Condor - Sharp already)
Obert Chembe
Trust Munangandu
Estifanos Kebede Gebresilassie (has a contract at Marco Polo for 2011)
Tsgabu Gebremaryam Grmay
Solomon Bitew Shiferaw (has a contract at Marco Polo for 2011)
Natnael Berhane*
Daniel Teklehaimanot*
Misgna Okbatsion*

These have to be on the team without doubt (if they're not at a Continental team already).
Many of the other riders (e.g. the ones from Lesotho, Kenya or the Seychelles) only train at the Center in South Africa and race in local races, and they're mostly not good enough anyway.
These guys have some results in international races and also ought to be in:
Yassin Ait el Attar*
Issiaka Fofana
Abdoul Aziz Nikiema*
Nicodem Habiyambere
Victor Krohne
Poloko Makara

That would make 12 riders. As the team is unlikely to be at two races simultaneously, that's enough.
Of course if Morocco and Eritrea (and Burkina Faso of course, totally forgot them until now) get their own national team, the riders marked with a * will go there, leaving only seven riders.
In that case I would add (more or less in this order, and not necessarily all of them):
Noufou Minoungou
Leris Moukagni
Andy Rose
Emanuel Rudahunga
Anthony Muite
Bright Chipongo
Eduard Pothin
Issiaka Cissé
Innocent Uwamungu
Abdallah Al-Malti
Francis Louis

The remaining riders I've never really heard of before, and that's saying something.


As I said already, Burkina Faso should also get a separate national team if possible. They have the Tour du Faso as home race (and won two stages last year, with Kagambega and Nikiema) and participate in several African races, including the Tropicale.


And as we're on the subject of Africa, South African champion Darren Lill signed a contract with MTN - Qhubeka. I know you're using the contracts as they were on June 1st, but this would be a case to make an exception, as he would only be in as a free agent otherwise (the same is true for Christoff van Heerden ) and played an important role in the Tour of South Africa, also winning a stage.

Its even a bit more complex than that as some of the riders from the African CCC also race under the UCI Mixed Team banner.

In the recent Coupe des Nations Saguenay this was their lineup:
BERHANE, Natnael (ERI)
GRMAY, Tsgabu (ETH)
DRONIN, Roman (UZB)
MOAZEMI, Arvin (IRI)
PATENKA, Yauheni (BLR)
REGUIGUI, Youcef (ALG)

It might make more sence to have the Centre Mondial du Cyclisme as sorts of an umbrella team than to have the ACCC in (although the African jersey is waaay cooler than CMCs)

Link to (some of?) CMCs riders: http://www.uci.ch/Modules/EAlbum/ALBUM/default.asp?MenuId=MTYxMTA&LangId=1

Unless its to have reasonably accurate starting fields in African races (and then you'd have to make sure that they didn't race elsewhere) I'd leave out the national teams and just add the riders as free agents. Same goes for Rwanda, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, UAE etc.

A very quick look at the starting fields at the African races 2011 suggests that Tour of South Africa, Tour du Maroc and the Moroccan challenges could function with only UCI continental teams. The Tropicale and Tour du Cameroun would need national (or actually regional) teams to be accurate.

I'd rather have club teams like DCM and Tasol GT in the db. Downside is that they'd have a very small race program. Upside is that it wouldn't be too bad if they hired a (example) Spanish rider.

crxfod, can you use the pictures?

Jaroslav wrote:

It might make more sence to have the Centre Mondial du Cyclisme as sorts of an umbrella team than to have the ACCC in

[snipped]

Jaroslav wrote:

Unless its to have reasonably accurate starting fields in African races (and then you'd have to make sure that they didn't race elsewhere) I'd leave out the national teams and just add the riders as free agents. Same goes for Rwanda, Mongolia, Uzbekistan, UAE etc.

That's exactly what I thought of today... Mabe we should leave out those national teams and put in the ACCC and a UCI Mixed team instead? Both would do great in filling up starting fields.

Jaroslav wrote:

A very quick look at the starting fields at the African races 2011 suggests that Tour of South Africa, Tour du Maroc and the Moroccan challenges could function with only UCI continental teams.

As they actually do, yes. In fact no need for national teams here, even if the Moroccan riders are missing then. Maybe some of them (like Ait el Attar, ...) could be added to the ACCC and take part with it. That would at least give some local riders to those Moroccan races.

Jaroslav wrote:

I'd rather have club teams like DCM and Tasol GT in the db. Downside is that they'd have a very small race program. Upside is that it wouldn't be too bad if they hired a (example) Spanish rider.

Well, could be cool to have those teams in. But if we add DCM or any other African club, it would be strange not to add European club teams that perform in even much more races already in the DB. So I don't like the idea of adding club teams after all.

Jaroslav wrote:

crxfod, can you use the pictures?

If you talk about your riders' pictures, then: Yes, thanks. Although I didn't have the time yet to go through all of them and look at the filenames and if they're correctly linked. Just another thing that's left to do...

Fus87 wrote:

And as we're on the subject of Africa, South African champion Darren Lill signed a contract with MTN - Qhubeka.

Didn't he sign with Bonitas?